Post by iconPost by dildotron | 2017-11-02 | 08:44:06

Hi Cvetan and all,

Is there an option to adjust the route if I have Code 0 installed on my boat?
I bet that could alter the course pretty drastically.

Thank you,

commenticon 51 Comments
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-02 | 12:43:33
It could affect the projected route drastically, but we should always remember that the projected weather is not there forever.

In reality the changes in the weather will be bigger than the few % performance gain offered by a C0.

I can imagine having the option to select different sails to see which one will provide the best advantage if you are going the NMS way, but there are more useful features to implement first.
Post by iconPost by Sama | 2017-11-03 | 08:11:27
Hello Cvetan,
It would be nice somewhere in the future to have checkboxes for the different extra sail sets. By choosing more checkboxes it could then cover the full extra pack maybe. It could help for NMS, as you said.
But I'm also open for other useful features :)
BR, Sama
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-03 | 13:02:30
I miss that feature myself, sometimes. But my reasonable self tells me (based on my own experience, and I've already stated it):

The only purpose of that function would be option selection before the race starts, if you decide to go the no money way.

But when you think about it it's somehow pointless exercise.

The option prices are calculated so there is NO way to be globally competitive without spending real money. In general you need at least one set of sails, foils, hull polish and winches to have a chance to finish top 100.

If you want to be competitive cough up the money, buy yourself some cards with the free credits and race happily.

If you want to play for free just to keep up with the race - spend the free credits on some navigation cards and sail your bare boat happily, possibly competing against fellow no money sailors in a mono class.
Post by iconPost by alulo | 2017-11-04 | 00:02:17
pour la JV j hesite pour les voiles trop cher le pack
quelle voile prendre la reaching?
Post by iconPost by YourMomSA | 2017-11-04 | 00:07:01
It's ok if you don't want to do it, as I'm sure it would be complicated and I agree that there's limited value after the start, but there are times when it would be handy. For example, I'm doing Mini Leg 2 without Heavy sails or a C0. I took a risk to save some credits. It looked viable at the start, but then the routings started wanting C0 a day after the start.

I had a bad first day anyway (my real life required attention), so it doesn't really matter in my case. But it would have been really nice to be able to run a routing that included Light sails and no C0.
Post by iconPost by JohnT | 2017-11-04 | 04:51:19
I'll add a vote for either adding Code 0 as an independent option, or for just displaying the full polars for the sails. The current display is wonderfully concise and elegant, but since VR hid the full polars, there's no easy way to explore where the crossover is in varying wind strengths....
Post by iconPost by Inicio | 2017-11-04 | 08:12:40
If you think for the No Money Racers, and in maintaining the same configuration and the same Monotype Class during the different regattas, the only (hardly) sustainable option is Code 0, which can be acquired with the credits given in each race.

That's why I think that, even if the difference is small, the option box Code 0 would give a great added value to the routes offered by Zezo.
With the current cost of options and cards, I think that this option and Monotype Class will have more and more followers.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-04 | 09:07:09
Ok, let's see. There are 3 packs, that makes 3 checkboxes and 8 possible combinations.

That can still be done with static polars, won't change the user interface too much. Only more clicking to setup things initially.

Then the pro winches should be a checkbox two. That makes them 4. 5 with the foils.

Then maybe add a box in the upper left corner with display of selected options, plus the mouse info from the status bar. But not on mobile.

Post by iconPost by Inicio | 2017-11-04 | 09:11:23
Fantastic !
Great !
Super ! ;-)
Post by iconPost by YourMomSA | 2017-11-04 | 13:34:17
Outstanding demonstration of how to accommodate input and recommendations from users, while communicating about your own concerns and approach. Thanks, as always. If only every website operated that way. :-)
Post by iconPost by GeGaX | 2017-11-04 | 13:30:56
Hi Cvetan
I think if you put every possible option in the form of a checkbox ... it would be a great improvement! ;)
Regarding the extraction of polar I am sure that we can help you in this process which would relieve you the workload.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-04 | 16:14:46
That should not be a problem. I just have to construct an array mapping the options as bit fields. Most work is actually in the user interface and the web front-end.

I went outside today for few hours to catch some autumn sun. Will begin the work now and will try to have it ready before the races start tomorrow.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 01:01:24
Here is a 'proof of concept' version, just to see how it works:

It may or may not work correctly, but if you move the destination to Fernando de Noronha the effect ot the different options can be clearly seen when hanging over the last black dot and looking at the DTF

Some things are currently broken:

- Polars
- Mobile version

Others may be broken too. The feature required a lot of changes in a lot of places.

There should also be a "Full pack" checkbox too, which hides all the others, because a lot of clicking is required now, but that would require a minor redesign.
Post by iconPost by SnowPetrel | 2017-11-05 | 01:10:33
Looking good, Cvetan!
Post by iconPost by Freako95 | 2017-11-05 | 01:18:16
Looks very interesting!
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 01:19:47
Please let me know if you see anomalies along the route - like a sail which is not supposed to be there or slower track with more options. It's been a long day, 1 AM here and I'm going to bed soon.
Post by iconPost by jpafonso | 2017-11-05 | 03:05:48
Great work, amazingly fast, although I was not a complainer against the old interface. It used more work, but I could still infer what was the Zezo's suggestion for the choices to make in the beginning. But the new interface is even better. I have now my own decision even if I'll point same odd things to all to be aware: for example, taking some sails from the full pack IMPROVES the result (in the experiments I did on the beta). My guess is that the extra options leads the boat to worse local minima, but it could be another reason. It is not only the imprecision in long range weather forecasting we must be aware.

Another thing, the advantage of some options is not that great. A sail I considered because I predicted to use it 1/4 to 1/3 of my voyage, only won to me about 0.5% time more, 1 or 2 hours in 4 hundredth. Is too low to be a selling point for VR. Are they really that close to normal sails?
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 02:27:53
Same for the transat, so you can judge the options before the start tomorrow.

Races are also linked on the bottom of the home page list.

I'll try not to break things badly tomorrow, but if something breaks try ctrl-shift-R or clearing browser cache.
Post by iconPost by dildotron | 2017-11-05 | 08:18:06
Wow, even though I can't see the checkboxes for different sails on Mac, Chrome Version 62.0.3202.75, even in Incognito Mode (no extensions running), from what I can tell you iterated insanely quickly. Thank you ever so much, Cvetan. Is there a preferred testing browser configuration?

Also, if you need help with front end UI — let me know. I would imagine you now my email address and I can send you my portfolio.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 08:37:37
I work on Linux myself, primary browser is latest mainline Chrome (62.0.3202.75 today) . I have few Windows VMs for testing, but haven't really opened the site on Windows since I dropped IE8 support. My MacOS VM is currently broken and unbootable, possibly beyond repair.

One usual problem is that I have aggressive caching strategy for the .js, but that can not be a problem with the new path. Any messages in the browser console? I haven't run any of the code via validator, html or js.
Post by iconPost by jpafonso | 2017-11-05 | 13:15:40
About the transact, the boat is a trimaran. It was the first time it came to me that you are presenting a different polar chart for each race. Until now, I used to maintain one open, used for all, because I thought it was the same. Is there any big differences between them?
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 13:17:19
Sure. They are quite different beasts, as in real life.

The Maxi is a monster, with up to 35 knots speed.
Post by iconPost by GeGaX | 2017-11-05 | 09:47:19
Hi Cvetan,

I tested all the options and for me it works perfectly

To compare I looked if the sails changed according to their activation and comparing the TTG with a weather at 10 days
I have one thing to say ... perfect superb work thanks !

One last thing, no checkbox with "Polish" is normal or a forgotten?

Screenshot with Chrome v62 / macOS 10.13.1, all is ok.

Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 09:54:57
Hull polish is assumed if all sails are on.

It's a small factor, and does not depend on conditions, unlike sails and foils.

It may give you few meters advantage in the game but will not affect the routing.
Post by iconPost by jpafonso | 2017-11-05 | 12:56:39
How do you get the table? It's new to me.
Post by iconPost by GeGaX | 2017-11-05 | 09:51:24
Only this in the console

Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 10:01:46
So you use AdBlock. As do I, btw.
Post by iconPost by GeGaX | 2017-11-05 | 10:09:03
It would be interesting to compare times with polish on or off
Post by iconPost by Inicio | 2017-11-05 | 10:50:57
VOR: moreless 18 miles
Post by iconPost by Russel1 FIN | 2017-11-05 | 10:31:23
Cvetan really knows the VoiceOfCustomer. Time for all of us to act like a customer and not only thank. You know where to find the "Donate"-button... :-)
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 10:45:40
Thanks. People do appreciate those things indeed, and that's MY business model ;-)
Post by iconPost by Inicio | 2017-11-05 | 10:47:26
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 10:46:25
Another small cleanup of the betas to get rid of some 10-year old code.

Will take a look at the polars now.
Post by iconPost by Inicio | 2017-11-05 | 10:51:56
Only Code 0 is faster than adding LS or HS
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 10:55:25
also noted by jpafonso above.

It may be optimizer quirk indeed or a mistake in the sail lists. Will take a look after the polar chart are working again (as they will reveal possible mistakes)
Post by iconPost by Inicio | 2017-11-05 | 11:16:03
HS slows down more

Actually, now in VOR, HS or LS are not faster than nothing.

Perhaps a slower calculation when more but not faster sails added?
Post by iconPost by marcusbelgicus | 2017-11-05 | 12:00:38
On the TJV, everything works fine, removing one option reduce speed. I have been quite surprised that the Winch pro has a higher impact than Heavy sails for exemple.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 11:52:04
Polar charts fixed for the betas. They need a bit more work - options don't sync with the main chart and better colors, also a legend with the sail colors. But should be useful even this way.

The sail selection seems OK, will look into the slow-down case now.
Post by iconPost by marcusbelgicus | 2017-11-05 | 11:52:58
@ Zezo : just one word :awsome. Thank you! BTW, don't forget to sleep as well, from time to time !!!
@ to all zezo users : don't forget there is a donate button in the sheet 'about' !
Post by iconPost by Inicio | 2017-11-05 | 12:11:39
It's great to see the difference in the polars!

I don't see any difference when clicking Foils. Not yet implemented?
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 12:31:45
Ooops. Forgot to change one line. Should work now (you may need to force a reload)
Post by iconPost by titoff50 | 2017-11-05 | 12:12:15
marcusbelgicus :
@ to all zezo users : don't forget there is a donate button in the sheet 'about' !

c'est fait :)
Post by iconPost by dildotron | 2017-11-05 | 12:13:18
Holy shit, I had no idea my question is going to spark a beta update to the router. Cvetan, you are the ultimate best!
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 12:34:28
It's not only you, but it matters. I may ignore one request, but when 5 or 10 people say they need some feature and I can do it in reasonable time (less than a day perhaps) I usually implement it, or at least rearrange the TODO list somehow.
Post by iconPost by dildotron | 2017-11-05 | 12:13:57
Probably the right time to hit that Donate button really hard and to pay respects where it is really due. Thank you Cvetan!
Post by iconPost by GeGaX | 2017-11-05 | 12:40:05
it would be cool if you would use the same colors of sails as me for your polar chart ;))

( Jib = #FFD479 / LJ = #FFFC79 / Stay = #D4FB79 / Spi = #76D6FF / LG = #7A81FF / HG = #D783FF / C0 = #FF7E79 )
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 12:47:46
Re: Performance

Are you sure you are looking at the same isochrone. The DTF could be more, but in 6 hours less time.

I just did some tests and (VoR, no foils, to FdN)

no sail 209h 45 nm
heavy 209h 26 nm
C0 only 209h 7 nm

light 203h 74 nm
HS + C0 203h 66 nm
HS + LS 203h 61 nm
LS + C0 203h 54 nm
Full pk 203h 22 nm

Or something like that
Post by iconPost by Team Divaneser | 2017-11-05 | 13:47:21
When setting the destination to Cape Town my boot gets slower with all options except C0.(Timeshift,T+371, DTF)

no sail 1386,0 nm
light 1409,5 nm
C0 1333,7 nm
heavy 1416,6 nm
Foils 1397,0 nm
Winch 1393,2 nm
All options 1319,7 nm (beta)

No sail 1417,1 (not beta)
Full extra pack 1347,6 nm (not beta)

It seems that something goes wrong when no options are selected.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 14:07:37
Full extra does not include foils in old version, just sails.

There was something with the foils in the beta.

Now I get the same results in both places

1387.1 no options no ts
1386.0 no opt, +ts
1319.7 full options + ts

OOPS. You are right about slowing down. Maybe it's the sail changes eating the gain without pro winches? With pro winches everything seems in order (on a first sight, that is)

Those tack penalties don't play well with the global optimum.
Post by iconPost by zezo | 2017-11-05 | 13:30:37
@marcus re pro winches.

It surprised me too, but makes sense if you think about it.

The difference is like you are standing still for 2 minutes.

That's 0.6nm at 20 knots boat speed. Make 20 tacks/sail changes and you are 12 miles behind.
Post by iconPost by Sama | 2017-11-05 | 13:32:34
Great job Cvetan, as always.
Many thanks for your ultimate support.
Now I could decide better, which configuration I need and also can always check the route with my own combination.
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